LDSTranscriptForGrok.com

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uu1LkrF0Hyw

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[Music]

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welcome back to the for all the saints podcast and I'm delighted absolutely delighted to be hosting Don Braddley Don

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welcome to the show hey there good to be here man thank you I've uh usually our

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listeners or viewers will know that I usually sport a sports shirt or a football shirt and uh I'm I've had a

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glow up today because it's a special occasion for you and I've just come back from the temple both of those

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equal but it's such a pleasure to host you and we're kind of celebrating the so

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the Book of Mormon was published in March 1830 which is 195 years

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ago I thought what better excuse to uh to have you on the show and to talk

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about that so H yeah let's get straight into the book of I thought actually with the dating of it

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it might be interesting to begin is is as an academic where do you see the book of Mormon's position in kind of

The Book of Mormons prevelence amongst wider religions

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religious culture right now and well well do you ever think that kind of in the next decade it seems to be having a

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kind of cultural moment do you think the Book of Mormon could be taken more seriously or become more prevalent in

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wider religious Society in the near future it's a big question to start off yeah that that is a big question and um

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one that's worth a lot of thought I I mean it depends in part maybe on um

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where sort of what context we're talking about it does appear that within um

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non-denominational protestantism there is something of a spread of the Book of Mormon I don't

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know how extensive but there are um there's a Baptist Minister well I guess

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he's not non-denominational but like Baptist minister Lynn rauer um who for decades has been

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preaching from The Book of Mormon promoting The Book of Mormon it seems like there are more um Evangelical

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Christians doing that me mostly non-denominational um and so I think it was Jan ships The

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Scholar of religious studies who made the observation once that um the book of

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Moren would be taken a lot more seriously and get a lot less Flack if it had just been around longer um so where

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you've got um you know the the Bible and other religious texts simply by virtue

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of having been around been known for thousands of years are given a degree of

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difference of veneration in not just the specific religion that those texts are

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embraced in but also more widely and so

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uh I think think that the longer that the book of Morman has been around the more Defence and reverence it will also

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receive within the wider culture book of Morman has been very much caught up in

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discussions about the truthfulness of basic latterday Saint um religious

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claims right and so uh the book of Mor tends to be used

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polemically so uh it was obser I think as far back as the early 70s maybe

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earlier that the book of can be used as a sign the book of Mor can be used as scripture and latterday Saints

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tend to use the book of heavily as a sign perhaps even more than they use

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that a scripture so what do I mean by using the book of Roman as a sign so um

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when the Book of Mormon is discussed it's often discussed especially in

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proing it's often discussed as a kind of sign that the restoration is true that

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the church is true so if someone gets a testimony of the Book of Mormon they are

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pointed the missionaries will Point them immediately to the church and say well therefore Joseph Smith was a Prophet

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this is the true church it's led by you know his successor who would also be a true prophet and so this is the church

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that you need to be baptized in and you know be devoted to um and so that is

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using the book of Mormon's function as a sign where the Book of Mormon then points to the church um the when we look

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at the book of r as scripture that means that we're looking at its content and

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we're really taking its content seriously and so because we have tended to focus so much on the book of Roman as

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a sign that's where non Latter Day Saints tend to fight with us over it

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they actually tend to um object I I hear far fewer object objections to the book

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of Mormon's content than I do to the book of Mormon's function as a sign

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right so if you look at um Evangelical Christians for instance will often Say

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Yeah The Book of Mormons is just you know largely just teaching Christianity as they understand it and so they don't

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they they often they will even sometimes point to the book of Mor men as a kind of proof text of their own and say well

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you know know the Book of Mormon doesn't talk about three degrees of Glory so you know that's that's not real like that's

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in line with what we believe where we believe there's just Heaven and Hell and so on um and

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so um the so part of this resistance to taking

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the book Mor seriously is that it is posed as a sign where what we say to

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people is there's an either or right either this is exactly what it purports

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to be it's an ancient record that Joseph Smith translated with Divine help or

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it's a fraud right and there's no value in it and so then you have critics

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trying to argue it's a fraud and there's no value in it and you have you know uh

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latter say apologist trying to argue no it's exactly what it reports to be therefore you should become a lday saint

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and so I heard a story um about Terell given once um book Morman scholar Terell

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given where decades 20 years ago 15 years ago I don't know he was speaking

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at a conference and the conference it wasn't a latterday saint conference it was a larger scholarly conference and

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there was a um a nonl day Saint scholar religion prominent scholar I believe it

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was Steven prro um who spoke as well after tarot

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given and what this other scholar said is he tries in his religious studies

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courses he tries to teach his students about the Book of Mormon but they just can't seem to get past the its origin

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story with the angel so they they his students will scoff at the idea of an

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Angel bringing a gold book right and so he was kind of asking charl given is

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there a way I can present this it doesn't foreground that and Terell given from how I heard

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the story at least was initially upset with this because uh Terell had actually

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published a whole book called by the hand of Mormon where part of what he was arguing is the book of Morman has to be

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historical um because of the nature of the claims that Joseph Smith made about the plates um it has to be historical or

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fraud so unlike many religious texts you can't take a kind of middle ground or just find good content and this is

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Terrell's argument so then when this other scholar was saying yeah but that really turns my students off and doesn't

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allow them to take the book seriously from the outset um TL actually later published a

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book in the very I think it was the very short introduction series a very short introduction to the Book of

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Mormon where interestingly he doesn't mention the book of Mormon's story of it's coming forth until something like

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two-thirds of the way through the book he actually just dives into the book of Morman text first and so even though he

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seemed to initially really dislike what this non-l saint scholar was saying I

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think he eventually realized actually maybe there's something to that that people if they get into the content of

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the Book of Mormon if they see the spiritual depths of the Book of Mormon then they'll be more likely to take it

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seriously and they'll be more likely to to take Joseph Smith's story of how it came forth seriously as something

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sincere rather than just dismissing the whole book off that so I think that's kind of a very

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long answer to your question but like I think basically what I'm saying is one approach that could be taken would be to

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dive into the what does the text say further there are Scholars like Joseph Spencer

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Joe Spencer at BYU who does just a marvelous job of really diving into the

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book of ROM text showing its complexities the complexities of its message and I think that there are such

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profound depths there that if people you know dive in if they see some of those

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depths they will certainly take the book much more seriously I think that is part

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of the future um where I suspect at least that going forward the relative

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balance between sort of apologetic arguments and just scripture scholarship

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a aimed at explicating the book's content will shift so that we have uh

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obviously apologetics is not going to go away but maybe we have more um content

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showing those spiritual depths and that will allow people in The Wider culture to take the book of more seriously

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and benefit from it's so interesting because I because I am as I reflect on what you're saying there I am am seeing

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for example I I got on Amazon delivered the other week um the annotated Book of

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Mormon from 20123 from the Oxford University press that's like you know

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they've dissected it and there are essays on it and it's kind of a a a more scholarly look at it from yeah you know

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Oxford rather than you know us publishing it as a as a church and that's really interesting and you have

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Reverend teal Oxford who um is studying it deeply and as you say kind focusing

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on the scripture not necessarily its evidence of restoration

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is a um but then also I'm kind of seeing as I watch a lot of podcasts and I I work for um Alex OK Conor I do a bit of

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work with him in podcasting and I I so I'm seeing him and other people kind of

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use the Book of Mormon as kind of a a gotcha to other Christians to say will

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you employ these Arguments for the Bible but you use those same points against the Book of Mormon so it's like it is

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interesting to see it kind of be talked about more but yeah yeah I hope that as

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we go I follow from Elder Stevenson's conference talk too about the next decade and the opportunities there and

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just as you said I really hope that we can dig into the book of more seriously

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as as time goes on um for sure um but I think to to your point about it being a

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sign we're we're going to dig into that a bit more yeah um and something I've

The coming forth of the Book of Mormon:interesting parallels

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been fascinated by with your research it was actually part of your book on the 116 lost pages about the coming forth of

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the Book of Mormon I thought what a great uh time to ask you about this with the anniversary yeah got I've got

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actually a quote from what you said in it that maybe we can talk about um the earliest events in the coming forth of

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the Book of Mormon beginning with Joseph Smith acquiring the Golden Plates occurred not at random and Sury times

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but on a sacred timetable from the Israelite calendar that demonstrates a larger design and enables us to better

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comprehend the purposes for which The Book of Mormon was brought forth yeah I

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thought this was fascinating could you just tell us um a bit about it teach us about that those

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dates certainly yeah so something that's absolutely fascinating to me and that I

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really keyed in on while I was writing my book on the last 116 pages of the

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book of um for which this is my book The Last 116 Pages reconstructing

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the book of Mormon's missing stories uh came out in 2019 so um the first part of it deals

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with the coming forth of the Book of Mormon including the last pages the and

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the and the loss of that manuscript it's theft and so on second part deals with what we can know the contents of the

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Lost pages so in the first part where I'm discussing the coming forth of the Book of Mormon I tell parts of that that

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can be pieced together that we don't usually hear and it was actually while I was writing uh when the book was nearly

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finished and the publisher was eagerly awaiting the manuscript um I was making new

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discoveries that I just couldn't help but you know put into the book and they actually are relevant um to

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understanding some of what's in the second part of the book about the contents that we can piece together from

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different sources about what was in the last pages but the discoveries that I

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was making had to do with the timing of the coming forth events and that these

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were actually key to dates in the Jewish Festival calendar and so

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one element maybe of appreciating how each of those early dates in the coming

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forth of the Book of Mormon was key to the Jewish Festival calendar would be to realize first that the Book of

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Mormon has the Book of Mormon relics that Joseph Smith reports recovering on

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Hur have a connection with the Israelite Temple relics they have parallels so if

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you think about in the ancient Jewish temple the Ark of the Covenant The Arc

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of the Covenant was not an optional feature of the temple was actually seen as the heart of the temple it contained

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The Covenant which was the the law right the the tablets of The

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Commandments and written by the Finger of God on the top of Mount Si right and

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the Ark of the Covenant was actually used as an altar for the day of atonement sacrifice the most crucial

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sacrifice of the year one time a year and the person who did that

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sacrifice was of course the Jewish high priest Aaron and his successors and so if you look at what we

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are told of the Ark of the Covenant what was it so it was a it was essentially it

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was a gold box Arc just means container here right it's plated with gold so it's a gold box and it contains these stone

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tablets that the Lord had touched with his finger on the high place right at

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the top of Mount Si for the prophet Moses if you look at the uh Stone box

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from which Joseph Smith recovered the gold plates there's an early account where

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Martin Harris described that stone box as an arc and his word

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Arc and the this this Arc and so the The Arc

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in the Hebrew Bible was a a gold box containing stone tablets with the word

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of God the Ark on camora was a stone box

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containing gold tablets that contained God's word so there's a parallel with an

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inversion right at which this actually happens frequently with symbolism in The

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Book of Mormon where it's actually it's on the pattern of the Hebrew Bible but

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then it's either directly parall or it's a kind of inverse parallel like that so

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if the as the Book of Mormon says the Nephites were practicing the law of

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Moses it would not have been optional for them to have something like like an

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an arc an arc of the Covenant because it would have played a role as an altar for the day of atonement sacrifice it would

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have sat in the holy of holies the center of their Temple um and they would have had a high

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priest who was uniquely able to access that arc on the day of atonement so when

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the high priest would go to access the biblical Arc of the Covenant he would be

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wearing a breastplate and attached to that breastplate he would have the urman

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Thum the two stones of the yman Thum by which he could Divine or disclose the

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will of God so with these uh gold tablets excuse

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me in the stone box onora Joseph Smith finds a breastplate

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to which attach the interpreters the two stones of the interpreters used to reveal the will of God which are

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obviously parallel to the yman Thum so much so that the early stains including Joseph Smith start calling them the AR

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and th right um also reportedly in the

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stone box and some accounts were um the Leah hona well in in the

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epist of the Hebrews in the New Testament it tells us that um there were

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other objects in the Ark of the Covenant in addition to the stone tops right and

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one of those was the golden pot of mana and the um golden pot of Mana of

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course represents the sustenance given to the children of Israel on their Exodus well lehi's family leads an

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exodus to a new Promised Land uh many scholars have actually written about how it's parallel to the Exodus of Moses how

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were they miraculously provided with sustenance was through the Leona right

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that led them to it um Leona also was used to Divine the will of God while

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also reportedly in the Arc of the Covenant in the epistle to the Hebrews uh it says that um there was Aaron's Rod

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that budded which was used in one of the uh stories of The Exodus to Divine the

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will of God about which tribe was supposed to have the office of high priest right um the sort of Laban was

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reportedly also in the stone box or at least the hilt of it and uh that might

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seem like it would be the The Relic that would break the pattern right well how could that possibly parallel um the um

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uh the Arc of the Covenant the temple relics right well it turns out that uh

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you know sort of lean uh Nephi is a kind of David figure fighting a a Goliath

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figure right cuts off his head with his own sword like in the David and Goliath story in the Bible the sword of Goliath

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is actually kept in the Tabernacle the early version of the temple uh behind

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the ephod which is the Garment that the high priest wore that he attached the breastplate and the thumb and toe so it

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also was a temple Relic so all of the items that Joseph Smith reports finding

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in the stone box have parallels to the sacred relics associated with the

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biblical high priest and Arc of the Covenant right so just like like

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fascinating mind-blowing uh connections right just an intricate set of parallels

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there and that uh provides some background for understanding also the

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the sacred calendar aspects of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon right so uh one of these had actually been

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identified Years Ago by a a woman named Lynette Hadley Reed she had identified

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that the first um well that the day that Joseph Smith reports recovering the plates from

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the hill Cur so his his final visit to the hill on September 22nd

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1827 is actually the first day of the Jewish feast known as r sh or the Feast

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of trumpets okay rosashana is it's a kind of Jewish New Year celebration

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there are two Jewish calendars but this is in one of the calendars this is in the festival calendar this is the

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beginning of the new year and the it's called The Feast of trumpets because at this Feast they blow

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the the chofar this is the Rams horns the trumpets and this is understood in

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heart to commemorate an event that happened during the biblical Exodus when Moses

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goes up on Mount Si for 40 days to get the tablets get those stone tablets

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right while he's up there there are essentially it's described something

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like Angelic trumpets right and so the blowing of the chofar at the

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Feast of trumpets commemorates that event when Moses goes up to to get the

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law then what I was seeing as I was writing this first chapter for my lost

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Pages book is that we have an account from one of the Smith's Neighbors in

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where they lived in Manchester near pyra New York where he says that a couple weeks

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after Joseph went to the hill to get the plates Joseph told him that about

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getting the plates and told him that when he went up in the hill recovered the plates from the stone box he hid

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them in a log a hollowed out log up on the hill he brought home the interpreters that night shows them to

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his mother then 10 about 10 days later he goes back to the hill and he gets the

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plates and he brings them home so now he's he's reuniting the plates and the interpreters and and by the way the

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Jewish high priest weree a crown or miter and on the front there was a there was an engraved gold plate there's only

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one engraved gold plate mentioned in the entire Bible and it is that gold plate and it had Holiness to the Lord written

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on it words that should be familiar to latterday Saints from a temple context right so uh gold plates also are

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connected with the the Jewish high priest and so Joseph brings home the sort of nephite urum and Thum then 10

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days later he brings home this these gold engraved gold plates

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well I don't remember what prompted me to look maybe it's just that I already knew

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that the Feast of trumpets was a Jewish holiday and I knew there were other Jewish holidays clustered around it so I

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checked in that year 1827 when was the next Jewish holiday on the

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calendar yum Kapur or the day of atonement the day that the high priest wearing that engraved gold plate uh and

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and the breastplate with the interpreters goes in to access the Ark of the Covenant and makes a sacrifice

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there what turns out that it's 10 days into the new year well we're told in

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this account that Joseph went up 10 days after he recovered the ples so that would align so then apparently Joseph is

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going and retrieving the plates and bringing them home on the next he he gets them from the stone box the stone

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arc on the first uh fall Jewish holiday Rashana then he goes back and retrieves

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them from the hill and brings them home on the next Jewish holiday yapur so uh turns out that it doesn't

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stop there so Joseph's mother Lucy Max Smith was allowed to speak at General

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Conference as sort of the the the mother of the church she was called on October

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I think it was October 8 1845 and this was I think it was like a

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Thursday and she says something like um you know 18 years ago last Tuesday she

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describes an event another event that happened in come forth of the Book of Mormon so if we go back two days um if

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we go back to the previous Tuesday which is a couple days before and then we go back 18 years we're at October 6th

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1827 so you look on that Jewish Festival calendar that is the first day of the

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Feast of Tabernacles or sukot so on that day Joseph first uses

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the interpreters he looks in them to inquire who can help him to get this book translated and published and he

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looks in the interpreters and the Lord shows him Martin Harris right so

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Joseph's batting a thousand here right whether he knows it or not right um he

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these first three events involving the relics of the Book of Mormon and the coming forth of the Book

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of Mormon in 1827 hit all three Jewish holidays in a

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row that that's the entire Jewish Fall Festival season right and then something

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that I had not pieced together at the time that I wrote that chapter of the book unfortunately but I've I put an

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article online since then in Meridian magazine that goes over it it's called something like um is well actually I

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think I have it here and Israel's festivals kamora's Ark and the coming forth of the Book of

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Mormon so what I realized is um remember

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that we've got a parallel here between Joseph Smith and Moses we've got a parallel between the stone box uh the

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stone Ark and the Ark of the Covenant and we also then that means

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have a parallel between Mount Si and hell kamur right so

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when Joseph when Moses goes up to get the tablets of the law the stone tablets

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he's we're told he's up there for 40 days on the

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mount this 40 days also in the Bible shows up multiple times as a period of

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testing like Jesus's 40 days in the wilderness so we are given an exact day

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by Martin Harris when Joseph is allowed to take the place from New York and take them down to

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Pennsylvania during that time that they're up in New York where Joseph has

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recover recently recovered them they're in constant threat of being stolen the whole time there are treasure treasure

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diggers who feel they have a right to the plates who are raiding the Smith property and trying to take those plates

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so this is a period of intensive testing for Joseph Smith and the Smith family

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keeping those plates safe Martin says that Joseph leaves New York to take the

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plates to Pennsylvania on November 1st he's actually cost it on his way out of town again by people trying to take the

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plates but he's got them hidden in a barrel of beat right so at first I was

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just confused like well there are no more Jewish fall festivals but here we have this fourth event what he's doing

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with these relics from kamora but I don't see any connection to the Jewish

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festivals or the Hebrew Bible until I counted the number of days from the day

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that he goes up on the hill and gets these golden tablets to the day that he's allowed to take them to safety and

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end this period of testing where they're in danger of being stolen from September 22nd 1827 to November 1st is hel it it's

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exactly 40 days way yes

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so all four of the first events of

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Joseph using these relics and beginning to bring forth The Book of Mormon are key to the um stories of the Jewish

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festivals uh in the Old Testament that's just fascinating

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I just wild I know it is wild um and

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well from that like do these specific events have links to the festivals

Jewish festivals and their links to The Book of Mormon

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themselves like you've you mentioned in that quote before that it's it illustrates the purposes of the Book of

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Mormon and I wonder how do you feel that it does illustrate the purpose of it

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rather than just kind of um showing the significance of it are there specifics

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to to those stated purposes of the Book of Mormon and how these dates kind of illustrate those yeah certainly so as we

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look on the book of Romans title page it declares two fundamental purposes of the

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book so first has to do is showing the remnant of Israel and here it's

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apparently particularly the lamanites right that they're part of God's covenant that they're not cast off

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by God that that Covenant continues and so there's an idea of a kind of

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gathering or restoration of Israel second purpose it says is to uh

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is manifesting to um All Nations that Jesus is the Christ the Eternal God okay

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and so the echo of the Israelite

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festivals shows it it emphasiz so all those festivals were instituted at Mount

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Si where the law was given where God's covenant with Israel was fully made

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right and so it harks back to the beginning of that Covenant and looks

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forward to the ultimate fulfillment of that Covenant then the as as Christians

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right we understand the elements of the law of Moses to point to Christ and the

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Book of Roman talks about this Paul talks about it the book of Roman talks about it quite a bit um so when the high priest goes into

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the holy of holies that day once a year to make that sacrifice on the Ark of the Covenant as

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an altar right we understand this to be a representation of the atonement of Jesus

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Christ and so the elements of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon both

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reinforce the reality and continuance and ultimate fulfillment of God's

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Covenant with Israel and they also represent the sacrifice of the Savior

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for humankind and I I lay out there are some

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details in the connections that I may not have in the Forefront of my mind at the moment but that I do lay out I use

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some specific scriptural references to draw the connections with Christ in the couple chapters where I talk about this

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in my book it's so interesting speaking about this so you won't know this but

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last week's episode when this is released the last the previous episode I recorded with Linda Cherry who

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wrote the book feasts and festivals of the Messiah oh okay she kind of we

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focused in that conversation more on how the Passover typ ofies Christ you know

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what we learned from the Jewish festivals but her kind of hypothesis is that we as latterday Saints should pay a

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lot more attention to the Jewish feasts and festivals and that we'll celebrate

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the Feast of the Passover in the Millennium or you know in the future anyway uh and so you know seeing these

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Illustrated connections to those feasts and festivals from The Book of Mormon standpoint yeah made me just think yeah

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this maybe this is a sign we should pay more attention to to

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to those feasts and festivals or what were you going to absolutely and so I was going to say reinforcing that um

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again this is something I also discussed in my book uh though this is also

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available in an article online um in the journal

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interpreter uh which is it's excerpted from the book there and maybe online

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it's called something like lehi's Passover something like that I'll link all of these in the description before this thank you um so

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I discuss in the first chapter of the book where I really go into the content

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of the Lost pages and what we can know about it I discussed an interview that was done with Joseph Smith Senor so in

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1830 when the Book of Mormon was at press in Palmyra the locals were hearing

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all the buzz about it but they couldn't read it yet because it was still being printed and so there's a young man

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living in Palm at the time distant cousin of Martin Harris's mother uh his name was fat laam and he and

35:02

another family member of his Jacob ramsdale they want to know what's in this book they're they want to find out

35:09

and so they show up at the Joseph Smith senior home with questions this is this is what I like to think I would have

35:14

done if I'd been around at the time right my curiosity would have driven me over to the Smith home so Joseph Jr was

35:20

living back down in Pennsylvania to work on his farm uh so

35:25

they talked to Joseph senior Joseph senior gives them first A Narrative of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon

35:32

which has some parts that are definitely garbled and we can identify how and basically why they got garbled he also

35:38

has parts of the narrative that he couldn't have known they're not published until much later than his own

35:45

narrative is published uh f laam um publishes The Narrative later and

35:53

so it goes to show that he did in fact have an inside source of information he did talk to Jus and get the the story he

36:01

got the scoop so here's about the com forth of the book of Mor some amazing details there then he starts telling the

36:10

story in the Book of Mormon all right and these guys are really interested in this because they can't read it yet and

36:17

Joseph senior he starts giving the familiar narrative and again there's some garbling but he starts giving an

36:23

obviously recognizable narrative he says that there was a prophet and the guy

36:28

telling the story relating the story doesn't remember any names right but he says there was a prophet in ancient

36:34

Israel and he was warned that a destruction was coming and so he leads his family out into the Wilderness to go

36:41

to a promised land and you know God has him travel out three days toward the Red Sea and he's telling the story of Lehi

36:48

here and talks about brass plates and sending his son back he only remembers the one son right but he sends his son

36:57

back and the sun finds the possessor of the plates who won't who won't give them up

37:04

and this possessor of the plates is drunk and he the son pulls out the guy's

37:11

sword even remembers him admiring the hilt of the sword which is part of the

37:16

narrative and he says though so all familiar narrative but he throws in an unfamiliar

37:23

detail he says that the man was drunk because it was was a great feast going

37:29

on in Jerusalem at the time so this CES the idea of a Jewish

37:35

Festival right an Israelite festival and as I started thinking about that there

37:40

are other stories that he tells later in this interview account that they're not

37:46

in our Book of Mormon text but they would fit hand and glove they answer questions that are available Book of

37:52

Mormon text raises but doesn't answer it appears that he has narrative from the

37:58

last pages of the Book of Mormon that he's relating jce my is relating to these interviewers Mark asur McGee a

38:05

friend of mine who's now at the Joseph Smith papers had posited that a long time ago I followed up on that and I

38:11

found just a ton of connections there where Joseph senior is

38:17

apparently relating pieces of lost narrative so I wondered is this idea that there was a

38:24

Jewish Festival going on at the time that Nephi gets the brass plates is that from the last pages does it relate to

38:32

any other clues that are in our available text the small plates version

38:37

of this story of Nephi getting the brass plates well when you think about it you

38:44

know laan NE Nephi says that laan had been out by Night among the Elders of

38:49

the Jews now he's drop dead drunk right um

38:56

these are pretty if he's just out drinking these are pretty high-profile Drinking Buddies the Elders of the

39:03

Jews he's also dressed in armor which seems a little bit odd if

39:08

you're just going out carousing right it suggests the possibility of a ceremonial occasion

39:14

he's dressed in armor he's been out with the Elders of the Jews and he's drunk uh when Nephi tells laan's servant

39:23

zoram as pretending to Bean that he wants to take the sacred record out to

39:32

the gates of the city to the elders there uh this servant doesn't bat an ey

39:38

this this doesn't seem apparently odd to him um all of this would make sense if

39:45

we've got not just a carousing context that night but a Jewish Festival context

39:50

that would explain why lean's drunk it would explain his uh being somewhat

39:56

overdressed it would explain why he's going out with the Elders of the Jews and so on so then I started to notice

40:04

that there were other features of the text that would fit and that would suggest the possibility of that there's

40:11

a particular Jewish Festival that was being celebrated at the time not just any Jewish Festival

40:19

so the Jewish Festival that commemorates so I mentioned earlier Lehi leads an exodus

40:26

to a new promis land there's a Jewish Festival that commemorates the beginning of the Exodus the beginning of the

40:32

Exodus is something we call Passover Passover is the event through

40:39

which Pharaoh finally allows the children of Israel to leave and begin their Exodus this is the beginning of

40:47

the Exodus Nephi references this when he compares laan to

40:55

pharaoh and the Egyptians and the rescue of the Israelites at the Red Sea traditionally Jews see the 8th

41:03

day of Passover as commemorating the crossing at the Red Sea uh the um Jews

41:11

three days journey out toward the Red Sea in The Exodus is initiated

41:17

inaugurated by the Passover Lehi undertakes just such a journey right at

41:23

the beginning of his journey and when his sons return Lehi offers sacrifices

41:31

well there are multiple periods of sacrifice beginning and the end of the

41:36

Passover um Passover would fit in various ways and Lehi has a vision at

41:43

the very beginning of this narrative he sees God and he sees uh one coming down from

41:51

heaven appears to be Christ right and he later when he's expounding this Vision

41:56

to his son it says he tells them that it had been

42:01

manifested to him that the well we know in Nephi first Nephi chapter one that

42:07

part of what he saw was the coming of a redeemer of the world it says that later when he's explaining to his

42:13

sons more what he saw in his vision he says that that Redeemer would be the Lamb of

42:20

God so NE Lehi having a vision of the Redeemer being the Lamb of God would fit

42:28

Passover perfectly perfectly amazing so there are other things that align with

42:33

the the a festival context here and that Festival itself being Passover well so

42:39

what what would be the significance of this well on its surface so we've given the book of Moran a sub an appropriate

42:46

subtitle that matches what it says on its title page that its purposes another Testament of Jesus

42:52

Christ when you open up the book and you start to read The Narrative at the very

42:57

beginning the first Nephi the Stray of Lehi it's not immediately talking about

43:04

Christ it's talking about this Israelite family and it's talking about their deliverance from destruction but when

43:11

you realize that their deliverance from destruction happens in the context of

43:18

Passover which represents the Deliverance of the entire

43:25

world by the Lamb of God then suddenly their Deliverance becomes

43:30

a type of the Deliverance of the World by the Lamb of God it's not just this

43:35

isolated event where human beings are being Sav from physical distraction it's a

43:41

representation of the plan the Redemption of the world and so the book

43:47

Mormon seen in that context we can see even more yes this is another Testament

43:53

of Jesus Christ this is what it's about from the beginning is it's about the

43:58

Redemption of the World by the Lamb of God that is that's in I love learning

44:04

about this stuff I I love the way that you're able to look at the Book of Mormon and you know put a detective hat

44:10

on and see this is what I wish my studies were were as fruitful as as as

44:16

yours are with writing this stuff um that is so amazing well I mean actually

44:21

following on from that what I said I would love to ask you because you have

The role of The Book of Mormon in Don's faith journey

44:27

powerful story that you know I can signpost people to other podcasts if they haven't watched them already about

44:32

your story and your faith Journey where you leave the church you become an atheist but then you return and now

44:38

you're you know proper historian researcher um on all of the church

44:45

history stuff and and scripture and everything it's quite marvelous and I just wonder what role did the book of

44:52

play in your faith journey and well how do you how does it

44:57

intellectually and spiritually satisfy you yeah yeah yeah thanks for this

45:05

question so yeah as people can get uh

45:10

however detailed version they want on various other podcasts um because

45:16

sometimes I've done nutshell versions and sometimes I've done hours long very in-depth versions the old br oh thanks

45:23

uh talking about my spiritual journey I I grew up uh latterday Saint my parents

45:29

were East Coast converts um I was came from a very devout family

45:36

I was very devout especially when I got to be about 15 I had a kind of Spiritual

45:41

Awakening that focused me on living for a larger purpose in my life and that

45:47

purpose being the purpose provided by the restoration and I also encountered a

45:55

little later in my teenage things that provoked my first doubts and

46:02

those were actually doubts about the Book of Mormon because I encountered a

46:07

devil's advocate case that General thority BH Roberts had written against

46:15

the Book of Mormon like decades earlier uh not with the intention that it be published but with the intention

46:22

of trying to sort of Steal man the arguments against the Book of Mormon so that Defenders of the book of R could

46:28

take those arguments into account in giving the best defense right that's not

46:34

how when this work was eventually published that's not how it was presented that's not how I encountered

46:41

it or received it it seemed like he was really trying to refute the Book of

46:46

Mormon at the time I didn't have answers to the sorts of questions that he was

46:52

Raising it put me into my first Faith crisis at 17

46:57

I recovered from that then you know in adult life doing lots of of my own

47:04

historical research him to my own New Faith chrisis very big where

47:12

I was finding things that increasingly seem to diverge from what I had started

47:17

out believing about the history of the church and then I stopped believing when

47:23

I was 30 and then ended up leaving the church

47:29

completely had my name removed from the record even became an exm Mormon atheist

47:35

for a time and then found my way back um or really was helped back right um

47:46

through a series of steps first to return to belief in God and then to

47:53

Believe In Christ and then to re-embrace the restoration and I was reaped and so one of the things that I

48:00

like to say because it's the absolute truth is that I gave up on God but God

48:05

did not give up on me right and um in

48:12

that process of returning to the church that's something that I thought that I could never do I had become convinced

48:18

that Joseph Smith was a fraud an opportunist that he was out for himself

48:25

and I nonetheless I continued my historical research during that time and thank

48:32

goodness I did right because that actually is what helped me make my first

48:38

steps back to the church it's what initiated my return I was studying the

48:43

first Vision I was studying the last pages of the book Mormon what we can know about what was in those this

48:50

several years before I post my book and I started finding things that

48:57

really blew my mind about the restoration um specifically

49:06

about the first Vision about the Book of Mormon so I started finding that like as maybe almost crazy as I might seem to

49:13

say off hand without explanation that the Book of Mormon actually contained a

49:18

great deal of the temple in it like the the temple endowment that's not something that I

49:24

would have believed until I actually saw it for myself um but a for instance

49:31

powerful for instance would be in ether chapter three the story of the brother of Jared and the the stones that he puts

49:39

into the jedite barges so the brother of J goes up on

49:44

and this would be an example too to your question of the like the depths that are in the Book of Mormon there's there such

49:50

symbolic depths and such complexities there are so many ways that the book of

49:57

reflects and pulls together integrates different

50:03

narratives from the Bible and it does it in powerful ways it does it in ways

50:10

that portended much later developments in the restoration so I had been

50:17

convinced that for years Joseph Smith did not know anything about the navu

50:22

temple endowment until he became a Freemason in 184

50:27

42 and what I found eventually doing my research is that just was that was the

50:35

furthest thing from the truth right that when you look in the story of the

50:40

brother of Jared you find first the brother of Jared's on a kind of Exodus

50:45

he's on a Mountaintop so Joseph Smith says in navoo in a sermon that when

50:50

God's people anciently were poor he did not require them to build temples he

50:56

they could receive receive their signs and tokens their endowments on mountaintops and that only when God's

51:01

people are more settled and have the means or they've required like us to build temples so the fact that this

51:08

group of people was on an exodus obviously they would not have been required to build a temple so this

51:14

Mountaintop scene in Joseph Smith's teaching would be a sort of Temple setting the brother of Jared were told

51:22

in ether 3 speaks with the Lord through the veil Lord puts his hand through the veil

51:29

the brother of Jared sees his hand and the Lord tests the brother of Jared's faith in knowledge by asking him a

51:36

series of questions about what he knows what he understands

51:43

beginning with a question about his hand what had he seen when the man passes the test the

51:50

Lord admits him through the veil into his presence and says you're redeemed

51:56

from the fall evoking the whole backstory of Adam and Eve

52:02

and the Lord touches these white stones that the man has and gives him two

52:08

additional white stones the white stone in DNC 130 Joseph

52:14

Smith says everyone who enters the soles Kingdom will be given a white stone and he quotes Revelation 2:17 to him that

52:20

overcometh I will give unto him a white stone in the which is written a new name

52:25

which no man Noah save him that receiveth it so the white stone is connected scripturally with a an

52:32

esoteric new name that no one else knows notice by the way that the guy receiving

52:39

this ritual interaction in the story what's his name in the story we're not

52:44

told his name he's just called the brother of Jared his name is withheld it's kept secret reinforcing the theme

52:51

of Secret names the Lord then gives the brother of Jared a a revelation of things that is

52:58

so comprehensive that he can't he's not allowed to tell it so he writes it and

53:05

seals it up that's the sealed portion and there are additional connections as well right in this story it's the high

53:13

point of the endowment right and there it is in the book of Mor so it's it's

53:18

very common actually to hear people say if they went through the temple and they

53:23

were Disturbed the first they went through it's common to hear them say I

53:29

never encountered anything like this before it's true you wouldn't encounter

53:34

anything like this out of word building but you encounter in the Book of Mormon unfortunately we don't

53:41

highlight that fact so people may go into the temple thinking they've never encountered anything like this before

53:47

whereas if they read the book of Mormon and they have a testimony of the book of they'd find that actually this has

53:53

already been confirmed to them through the book Mormon itself and so I started seeing that and other things that again

54:01

it's was just like you know explosion right it was the last thing in the world that I

54:08

expected that's so cool yeah I no I was just saying I'm experiencing that same mindblowing uh now having just attended

54:17

the temple with my S my sister's endowment actually so I'm going to have to send this to her after oh wonderful

54:23

cool cool cool cool and yeah there's so much in the Book of

54:29

Mormon that has such depth in talking about the Savior so one of the things I

54:37

did not see it at that time when I was first coming back to the church uh well

54:42

well let me let me say this first I when I was doing my when I was writing my book on the last pages I remember a

54:49

point where the ideas were coming to me so fast the new insights that I wasn't

54:55

able to record them fast enough and I knew I was losing some and I had this thought I thought I am going to spend

55:02

the rest of my life digging into this book and I am never going to reach the

55:08

bottom this is a bottomless well there's there will always be more to uncover so

55:14

one of the amazing things about the Book of Mormon is it's able to meet you wherever you're at so you can read the

55:22

book of morm as a child and there's a great deal for you to learn learn you can read the book of Mormon as

55:30

an adult right has been through Seminary and been on a mission and been in the

55:36

temple and there's a great deal for you to learn you can read the book of Mormon as someone who has studied sacred texts

55:43

the history of the church read the book of Mormon many times and there's a great deal to learn right wherever you're

55:49

whatever wherever you're at the book of Morman can meet you there with new insights and new complexities

55:56

so one example of this for me that really illuminates the Gospel of Jesus

56:03

Christ more is I was reading several years ago in Elma chapter 7 and Alma

56:11

there he's preaching about the atonement and he says uh he keeps repeating a

56:17

certain phrase as he's describing what Christ did for us and his sacrifice for us he keeps repeating the phrase take

56:24

upon him he says Christ will take upon him our infirmities Christ will take

56:30

upon him our transgressions Christ will take upon him our pains he uses it for about something

56:37

seven different things and one of them he says he will take upon Him death and

56:43

that's the one that really struck me because if you think about that phrasing it's

56:48

weird so you and I we someday die and when we do how many people are going to

56:55

say he took upon Him death nobody right because we don't take

57:02

Upon Us death we're sort of Taken on by death right we don't take it upon

57:07

ourselves it's not voluntary it it just happens to it's something we're subjetive so this is King Benjamin's

57:14

language in his great sermon right he says he says I'm subject to infirmities

57:22

like everyone as infirmities of body and mind we are subject to infirm we're subject to death what it's calling

57:29

attention to with this language of taking upon him is that Christ wasn't subject to these things like we are he

57:36

took them upon himself voluntarily in other words we have to bear these

57:41

burdens we have to die we have to deal with the consequences of sin because

57:47

we've sinned we have to suffer pain Christ didn't have to do any of those things in

57:53

the book of Mor title page as I mentioned earlier declares Jesus as the Christ the Eternal God it talks about

57:59

him having been divine right God before he came to the Earth and so he comes he

58:07

takes these things upon himself voluntarily for us so he is voluntarily shouldering our

58:15

burdens our own burdens we have to shoulder there's no choice but the burdens of others are optional to

58:21

shoulder he shoulders ours for us when we re read in mosiah 18 where

58:29

baptism is first instituted in the Book of Mormon and Elma challenges his people

58:34

to make a covenant of baptism he asks them are you willing to

58:42

comfort those who stand in need of comfort mourn with those who

58:48

mourn and take upon them take upon you one another's burden bear one another's

58:54

burdens and and what he's asking us to do is what

59:01

Christ did he's not asking us just to Bear our own burdens again that's not

59:06

optional he's challenging us the Covenant challenge is to Bear one another's burdens it's to live on the

59:14

pattern of Christ's sacrifice for us and

59:20

so I think for a long time I'd had this idea that there's that

59:26

there's what Christ did what Christ did in the gospel the good news right his

59:32

suffering for us and then there's what the gospel asks us to do how it asks us

59:37

to live toward our fellow human beings and those are really like two different

59:43

things they're not what Christ did and what he ask us to live it's the same

59:50

thing it's the same pattern we're being asked to live on the pattern of the go

59:56

gospel we're being asked to live on the pattern of what he did for us to to do

1:00:02

something similar for others to Bear one another's burdens and so I did not I I was a

1:00:11

Christian for a while outside the church during my journey this is an Insight I didn't get from outside the church and

1:00:20

this is an Insight that I got when I came back from Reading deep in the Book

1:00:27

of Mormon there's so much richness there there's so much that can illuminate the

1:00:32

Gospel of Jesus Christ for us help us to understand better what Christ did for us

1:00:39

what he asks of us what he asks us to do for others and so the book of Mor man

1:00:45

just it like I said it's a bottomless well of complexity it's a bottomless

1:00:50

well of insight it's a bottomless well of things that we can mine out and apply

1:00:56

to our own lives such an inspiring testimony that just I don't know hearing

1:01:02

you reignites my kind of curiosity about it because I know I I love reading the

1:01:08

book of Mormon I feel the power of the Book of Mormon when I read it but and maybe it's the frame of mind I'm in when

1:01:14

I'm reading it you know I'm usually at my desk you know in between bits of work um and I think I'm excited to read it

1:01:22

again but I know the stories I've read them several times before I've talk

1:01:27

about them on my mission you know you know what I mean like I know this book like the but when I hear you speak and

1:01:34

when I speak to other incredible Scholars like you I'm thinking man there's actually so much more to this

1:01:41

there are deeper layers H yeah do you have in kind of closing because I know

1:01:46

we've got to wrap this up um is there any tips you can give to people

Advice for studying The Book of Mormon

1:01:52

listening that they could Implement in their study to kind of access those not

1:01:59

complexities but just making it a a kind of deeper like yeah powerful study

1:02:05

session rather than just let's reread Nea you know what I mean yeah I think I

1:02:12

would say for one thing ask a lot of questions and especially ask a lot of why

1:02:17

questions so um why is why is this being presented

1:02:23

this way or uh why let's take the story in first Nephi

1:02:29

the beginning of the book why why does the story begin here or why is this being mentioned what why is this being

1:02:36

foregrounded also questions about how does this relate to other things in the

1:02:42

scriptures how does this relate to particularly maybe the stories of the

1:02:47

Hebrew Bible because the book of R is set against the backdrop of those but also the story of

1:02:54

Christ and how do different parts of the book of relate to each other because there are themes and patterns so

1:03:02

one theme that's come out in this conversation is The Exodus theme or Exodus pattern well that's woven

1:03:07

throughout the entire book right there there are a variety of events in the

1:03:13

Book of Mormon that are really built on this Exodus model where people are being

1:03:18

led by God from this they're being delivered and led to a new Promised Land

1:03:25

the second this happens multiple times in the book not just once so asking questions about how do

1:03:34

these different things relate to each other there are there are really good

1:03:40

authors who could be read on these kinds of things I mentioned Joseph Spencer Joseph M Spencer before who just just

1:03:49

phenomenal work on the Book of Mormon James Falconer who I think is probably retired

1:03:54

now from BYU has written a lot on just using tools of scripture study so some of them are

1:04:01

nitty-gritty tools right so like for instance if we find a phrase in the Book

1:04:08

of Mormon let's say this phrase take upon him well we might look up in the

1:04:15

scriptures online the phrase take upon him and say what are the different ways this phrase is used or an early example

1:04:22

that I saw of this when I was a teenager was the phrase great marvelous work in the Book of Mormon there was an author

1:04:29

who really he looked at all the times that great and marvelous was used in the Book of Mormon all the times that

1:04:35

marvelous Works was used in the Book of Mormon and so on and what you find is

1:04:40

that these terms they're not used randomly that they're actually patterns to how the phrases are used and so if

1:04:48

you understand how the Book of Mormon more generally uses a certain term or phrase it can help illuminate how it's

1:04:55

used in this particular passage so getting more context I guess but but I would say

1:05:03

particularly asking asking questions asking why questions and asking

1:05:11

questions about how a certain passage or particularly

1:05:16

maybe a certain narrative in the Book of Mormon relates to broader patterns of

1:05:23

sacred narrative and events in the Bible and elsewhere in the Book of

1:05:28

Mormon well thank you that's really valuable and I for one I'm sure many others listening agree but I I can't

1:05:35

wait to go and reread first Nephi with the context of a of an exodus and read

1:05:41

the jar the jaredites account yeah thinking about the temple um yeah I'm

1:05:46

excited to do that so I I'm really appreciative of your time done and what's uh what's next for you what are

1:05:53

you working on at the moment if you is there a way people can keep up to date with with your research and and what

Current projects

1:05:58

you're working on that is a great question I I need to start a website

1:06:03

right as of right now I have an academia.edu page that maybe you could

1:06:10

link where that doesn't have everything up to date because when I publish things

1:06:16

I'm not necessarily at liberty for um intellectual property copyright reasons

1:06:23

for the publisher to put an article core chapter online immediately but often I

1:06:28

can eventually put those up so I have maybe 10 Publications up on my

1:06:34

academia.edu page I will be starting a website that

1:06:40

will have more things I've got I've got a lot of projects that I'm getting

1:06:45

written up I've got stuff right now on the origin of plural marriage in NAU

1:06:52

just new discoveries that essentially write the story of the origin of

1:06:58

polygamy NAU um I've got a book that I'm working

1:07:05

on of essays on different Visions in the

1:07:11

early restoration the first Vision priesthood restoration events other events and I've got work on Oliver

1:07:17

calary as a Revelator in translator and and more all all in the works fantastic

1:07:23

can't wait for those um but for now thank you so much for your time Don thank

1:07:30

[Music] you thanks for watching for all the saints this show needs your help to grow

1:07:38

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enjoy it thank you